MAT SUBPLOT: Battle of the stakers

[tnx4DchipsLOL]

It's no secret that majority of those playing in the MAT are staked. I, for one, cannot afford to risk 10K that's why I made a staking deal with 11Finger, who is also staking a couple of other players.

Just like 11F, other highstakes/VIP players are also fielding their horses. I've heard that one of them is planning to stake 20 players.

Now, my concern is this: with this tournament -- and any other tourneys -- becoming some sort of a "team competition", maybe the organizers, in this case the METRO should enforce a rule that would require players to openly divulge if he is a) staked b) by whom and c) who he swapped actions with. Maybe at least at a certain stage of the tourney like once all the players are in the money.

This, I believe, would help minimized if not totally eradicate collusion.

And this idea is not new as The Epic Poker League has it.

What's your take?

[rob14stunner]

i really like this topic. does this happen only here or event in WSOP events may collusion? being a player in metro i know who are friends and some teams, kaya ang hirap minsan maglaro with meron alam mo ka team. like would a HP call an all-in of a fellow HP? or will a stakee call your staker? (e.g. will ian call 11f for a showdown) having too many friends in metro is already hard, playing against them is even harder. i would call anyone in risk of losing a friend, pero dapat din ma-accept ng mga other players for calling them. that's why i admire the likes of metro regular jojo bay and others, he would not backdown against anyone during the game (even stakers).

[Mark D.Hazzard]

I'm not holding my breath for this one. There's too much money involved for Metro to rock the boat of certain people or groups. It's the same thing with cash games and daily tournaments. And what's to stop a person to just say he really did buy in with his own money?

With more scoundrels about, few people trained to spot them, fewer gutsy enough to turn them in, collusion is almost a foregone conclusion in tournaments these days. Sad but true.

[tnx4DchipsLOL]

But at least having such rule would be a welcome development if Metro is really serious in living up to its billing as the best card room in Asia. Anyway, they are not going to prevent a staker to have as many horses as he wants. It's just that it will be made known so appropriate actions can be taken if needed.

Also, I think it should be the dealers' responsibility to spot and report to the TD/floor any shenanigans happening at their table. Like for example, discussing a hand like "set ka ba? barok barok ako" should be reported immediately by the dealer. What's happening now is the dealer just ignores those clear violation of the rules and it's the other players who almost always spot those things and call the floor.

Just like what happened in the PLO SNG a couple of weeks ago, when a usually aggressive player found himself heads up with a guy who everyone knows is his staker. They went check all the way and the former who's last to act tabled the nuts. The dealer didn't notice it and when informed she just shrugged it off forcing me to argue that a floor should be called. the result was those two players got mad at me. Had the dealer spotted it or at least took the initiative to call the floor after she was informed of such violation, animosity would have been prevented.

Agree with doc that sad but true, collision is almost a foregone conclusion in tournaments these days. But we shouldn't be resigned to that fact. We, particularly the tournament organizers, can do something.

Maybe PAGCOR should require the organizers of every major tournament to give each player the copy of the TDA rules as well as the house rules, so there will be no excuses such "I didn't know", "I was not informed"

[RedAirkson]

Stakees should wear T-Shirts with their Stakers' logo on them eh?

[11Finger]

or will a stakee call your staker? (e.g. will ian call 11f for a showdown)

Rob at the Metro Cebu Cup last year, the final four was down to me, Ian, Albert, and a Japanese guy. At that time I had a piece of both Albert and Ian but no holds barred kami maglaro. In fact I was the one who busted out Albert even before the Japanese guy, no chop din kami, play all the way.

Same thing at FPT 5, AttyBubba and I swapped pieces of each other but that didn't stop both of us from constantly battling each other (as you can see on the footage).

Point is, stakes or not if players have integrity it doesn't really matter what the situation on the buyins are.

[rob14stunner]

or will a stakee call your staker? (e.g. will ian call 11f for a showdown)

Rob at the Metro Cebu Cup last year, the final four was down to me, Ian, Albert, and a Japanese guy. At that time I had a piece of both Albert and Ian but no holds barred kami maglaro. In fact I was the one who busted out Albert even before the Japanese guy, no chop din kami, play all the way.

Same thing at FPT 5, AttyBubba and I swapped pieces of each other but that didn't stop both of us from constantly battling each other (as you can see on the footage).

Point is, stakes or not if players have integrity it doesn't really matter what the situation on the buyins are.

yan ang dapat kasi but the problem is walang integrity mga players nowadays. ung rule ng iba sa metro "im ur staker" or "i staked you before", they call it "respect" which is a stupid thing. metro kasi you can see same faces jan almost everyday and they don't battle with each other. e.g. i was there when ian called the floor on an incident check all the way with the stakee holding the nuts because a week before that game stakee called an all in of the staker and his rep@Tation became sour with metro loyalist dahil sa "utang na loob" unwritten rule. i was the only one quietly siding stakee, and the rest of the players i talked to sided the staker... so the problem lang talaga is integrity among players is well gone sa metro players...

[welcoat]

the final table in metro cebu cup is exception and very much laudable.  at the metro and almost every where in philippines i play, softplaying between friends is common, and i always make it a point to comment on the deplorable action every time.  it does not matter when you do not have the nuts when donks plays are so common, checking sets trips fh flush or st on turn or river stinks.  these players have no ambition.

[panulay]

OPINYON ko lang...

ang pinagkaiba kasi ng stakers sa metro at staker kagaya ni 11F, yung mga stakers sa metro are staking to make money. while here sa PM, again opinyon ko lang, stakers like 11F are there to help players out.

[tnx4DchipsLOL]

In the last APT, we saw Mark Benasa and Ramil Tandoc having lunch together along with their wives and it's Mark who busted Ramil out.

In the Pacman b-day tour, I heard Ronnel Sto. Tomas and Derrick Hernandez agreeing to swap action and they ended up making plays against each other with the latter eventually busting out the former.

I was heavily criticized when I called Pusang Gala's shove with QQ and eventually busting him out in the tourney just a couple of spots short of the money. Me and Pusang Gala swapped %%%.

I was also called "walang utang na loob" when I trapped, got trapped and sucked out on vicpena in the well-discussed Aces vs Queens RW incident. One player, a veteran of the game, even had the gall to tell that what I did was very wrong. Baka wala na daw mag-stake sa akin, lalayuan daw ako ng staker.

[reyjeff]

or will a stakee call your staker? (e.g. will ian call 11f for a showdown)

Rob at the Metro Cebu Cup last year, the final four was down to me, Ian, Albert, and a Japanese guy. At that time I had a piece of both Albert and Ian but no holds barred kami maglaro. In fact I was the one who busted out Albert even before the Japanese guy, no chop din kami, play all the way.

Same thing at FPT 5, AttyBubba and I swapped pieces of each other but that didn't stop both of us from constantly battling each other (as you can see on the footage).

Point is, stakes or not if players have integrity it doesn't really matter what the situation on the buyins are.

yan ang dapat kasi but the problem is walang integrity mga players nowadays. ung rule ng iba sa metro "im ur staker" or "i staked you before", they call it "respect" which is a stupid thing. metro kasi you can see same faces jan almost everyday and they don't battle with each other. e.g. i was there when ian called the floor on an incident check all the way with the stakee holding the nuts because a week before that game stakee called an all in of the staker and his rep@Tation became sour with metro loyalist dahil sa "utang na loob" unwritten rule. i was the only one quietly siding stakee, and the rest of the players i talked to sided the staker... so the problem lang talaga is integrity among players is well gone sa metro players...

Tama si 11F dito pero ibang klase kasi kayo ni Attybubba!!!  Kayo na ata yung malapit ma-extinct na player/staker who wants to play poker how it should be played....  Yung tipong may the best player win....  And siguro naman obvious na ganun mga kalaban gusto ko makalaro....

Tama din si Rob sa kanyang pananaw....  85% siguro ng players sa Metro alam kung sinong "magkakampi" or "magka-grupo"....   Obvious din naman kahit papaano e magagaling din naman itong mga nakuhang miyembro kundi di naman sila kukunin ng mga staker....  Pero doble pahirap talaga dun sa mga "solo flights" dahil habang ikaw e namimili ng tamang cards at tamang tiyempo e yung mga miyembro nagpapaikot ng chips sa kanilang mga sarili lang... 

Kaya sobrang laki respeto ko sa mga kagaya nila Kent at Lester na nanalo sa mga tourneys na ang dala lang nila e ang sarili at galing nila

[wonderdog78]

This is a common issue, not only here but anywhere in the world (although mas garapal lang sa atin maybe bec of our "pakikisama" culture.)

- Staked people should declare that they're staked upon registration, failure to do so should result in DQ
- TD should reserve the right to see their hole cards anytime esp when they're sitting in the same table with other horses or the staker
- It's up to the TD and floor to be vigilant to ensure that the game's integrity is not compromised, esp in the later stages of the tourney.

If people are gonna softplay and the TD is not gonna be vigilant, there's really nothing you can do about it.

Just take comfort in the fact that these people are never gonna get anywhere and will always be at the level where they are bec of their attitude and approach to the game.

[tnx4DchipsLOL]

at least Metro should strictly enforce the rule that prevents players from discussing their hands with action pending -- even heads up. The dealers should act as the sheriff at the table.

Having players disclosed who their staker/s or who they swapped actions with will allow the TD/floor to act accordingly. Like for example, a player who asked his staker "straight ka?" should be penalized, while reyjeff asking garfy the same question shouldn't be.  Oh well unless their flowery exchanges here are justy for a show and they are in fact..... ehem!!

[tnx4DchipsLOL]

This is a common issue, not only here but anywhere in the world (although mas garapal lang sa atin maybe bec of our "pakikisama" culture.)

- Staked people should declare that they're staked upon registration, failure to do so should result in DQ
- TD should reserve the right to see their hole cards anytime esp when they're sitting in the same table with other horses or the staker
- It's up to the TD and floor to be vigilant to ensure that the game's integrity is not compromised, esp in the later stages of the tourney.
If people are gonna softplay and the TD is not gonna be vigilant, there's really nothing you can do about it.

Just take comfort in the fact that these people are never gonna get anywhere and will always be at the level where they are bec of their attitude and approach to the game.

paging BryanTD, Miss NinaC 

Agree. If some card rooms, during major tourneys, are requiring  players to sign some sort of a waiver upon registration then why not include those mentioned by wonderdog78.

 

[arvyt]

hopefully they can do something about this . . . .

[reyjeff]

at least Metro should strictly enforce the rule that prevents players from discussing their hands with action pending -- even heads up. The dealers should act as the sheriff at the table.

Having players disclosed who their staker/s or who they swapped actions with will allow the TD/floor to act accordingly. Like for example, a player who asked his staker "straight ka?" should be penalized, while reyjeff asking garfy the same question shouldn't be.  Oh well unless their flowery exchanges here are justy for a show and they are in fact..... ehem!!

Hahaha laughter is indeed the best medicine as per egol!!!!

[polnkel]

this is a hopeless situation....

staking is usually a handshake or verbal deal.....

no written contracts...  no evidence......

ur word against mine kind of deal.....

[tnx4DchipsLOL]

this is a hopeless situation....

staking is usually a handshake or verbal deal.....

no written contracts...  no evidence......

ur word against mine kind of deal.....

I beg to disagree. It's not hopeless. Kaya nga maganda yung suggestion ni wonderdog na failure to declare that your in a staking deal could result in DQ.

[PepeSmith]

I get polknel's point on this... The only guys who would follow this are the guys who are honest in the first place...

This is were integrity will come in like what 11f said... If they were dishonest in the first place what would make them declare that they were being staked....

It's nice to have it though for formalities sake...

[tnx4DchipsLOL]

But it's not hopeless. Metro can make a rule and let's say a person didn't declare he's staked and went on to win the tourney. He can be banned from future tourneys. A card room doesn't need hard evidence to ban a player remember?

The point of this rule is not to prevent staking or swapping % but to give other players that information as well as to allow the TD/floor the same information, which they can use in keeping the game fair.

A stern warning that those who failed to declare they're in a deal would be DQd, I believe, would be enough.

[polnkel]

But it's not hopeless. Metro can make a rule and let's say a person didn't declare he's staked and went on to win the tourney. He can be banned from future tourneys. A card room doesn't need hard evidence to ban a player remember?

The point of this rule is not to prevent staking or swapping % but to give other players that information as well as to allow the TD/floor the same information, which they can use in keeping the game fair.

A stern warning that those who failed to declare they're in a deal would be DQd, I believe, would be enough.

- may isang suggestion ako....

kung ganyan lang din ang gusto nyo....  y not make a STAKING AGREEMENT FORM....

para everything will be in black n white.....  pati stake % ilagay na rin dun.....

im sure matutuwa mga stakers dyan....  para may security din sila na makukuha nila ang parte nila pag nanalo ang kabayo nila....

[Mark D.Hazzard]

Pol nasa staker naman yan. There are stakers who make you sign a contract. I used to do it before when I didn't know people that well. Now, it's a gentlemen's agreement for me. It limits who I stake, but at least I have piece of mind outside of a peace of paper.

[polnkel]

Pol nasa staker naman yan. There are stakers who make you sign a contract. I used to do it before when I didn't know people that well. Now, it's a gentlemen's agreement for me. It limits who I stake, but at least I have piece of mind outside of a peace of paper.

-  the piece of paper is formality lang... yan kasi ang sina suggest nila ian....  declare staker / stakee....

kesa verbal declaration na pwedeng ma-deny lang....   written na mas maganda....

[PepeSmith]

Pol nasa staker naman yan. There are stakers who make you sign a contract. I used to do it before when I didn't know people that well. Now, it's a gentlemen's agreement for me. It limits who I stake, but at least I have piece of mind outside of a peace of paper.

-  the piece of paper is formality lang... yan kasi ang sina suggest nila ian....  declare staker / stakee....

kesa verbal declaration na pwedeng ma-deny lang....   written na mas maganda....

Actually I think polnkel has a good idea here... It serves two purposes as it also protects stakers with a contract... Tournament organizers should be able to give prize directly to staker by doing this without the staker waiting for stakee to get paid and then collect if they use a formal staking agreement form provided by the organizer.

Staker will be able to collect directly from cage/organizers without fear na tatakbo ang stakee. So staker has incentive to use it...

It also gives TD's /organizers information on who are staked...

[tnx4DchipsLOL]

Pol nasa staker naman yan. There are stakers who make you sign a contract. I used to do it before when I didn't know people that well. Now, it's a gentlemen's agreement for me. It limits who I stake, but at least I have piece of mind outside of a peace of paper.

-  the piece of paper is formality lang... yan kasi ang sina suggest nila ian....  declare staker / stakee....

kesa verbal declaration na pwedeng ma-deny lang....   written na mas maganda....

wrong suit pol di ka makakabuo ng flush....hindi yan yung sina-suggest namin....the goal is just to inform everyone who among those playing have swapped actions with each other or staked by the same person.....gaya nga ng sinabi ko halimbawa kami ni Squeezy, we agreed to swap action, then nagkasama kami sa table, kung alam ng floor na meron kami stake sa isa't-isa then if for example in a hand I tell him "flush ka ba?" or "pockets ka?", I could slap with a penalty for that mere table talk. But if for example ang involve sa ganung table talk eh si garfy saka si reyjeff, then they will not be penalized for uttering the same words............But if it turned out na si garfy pala ang staker ni reyjeff at di lang nagdeclare si reyjeff then eh will be disqualified kung ongoing pa yung tourney or kung tapos na he will be banned.....kuha nyo?!!!