Metro Card Club Doesn't Know Basic Poker Rules

[pixar]

So early this morning the most amazing  thing I've experienced in any poker room occurred. Read the full details of what happened here - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/brick-mortar/what-heck-strange-floor-ruling-am-i-going-mentally-ill-1132519/

How can anyone take the Metro Card Club seriously when out of two floor, a dealer, and a group of players not one single person has heard of what a re-raise is? What on earth would give anyone the impression that an all-in would prevent someone from re-raising a previous raise when they didn't even call that raise? Never in my years of playing poker have I heard of, yet alone encountered, such a misunderstanding of basic poker betting rules.

Please read the post I made in the link and someone please explain to me how this is possible. Who at the Metro Card Club do I complain to?

I requested that they view camera footage, speak to the owner, the management, but ultimately it was like no one cared. I was prevented from doing a perfectly legal action when there would be no doubt whatsoever within the minds of anyone who knows how to play poker that I was entitled to do it.

Does anyone within the Metro Card Club management know even basic poker rules? Do they care these basic rules aren't enforced?

And if there is some obscure house-rule that prohibits call/raising or check/raising (which I've never encountered before at the Metro) then where can I find this rule? And, if such a rule did exist, it would truly make the game not poker at all.

I'm in utter disbelief about how Metro could rule that I could not raise in this circumstance.

[japeks_2]

5 points you need to consider

1. if you think they are incompetent, never play at the metro...
2. You are correct sir...You have a very valid point and any CASINO will let you 3-bet
3. It's the lowest stake...in the country...that is legalized by Pagcor...They could careless if you were phil ivey or some odd ball BILLIONARE playing in the smallest stake....House always win..Figuratively and mathematically.
4. The Higher The Stakes The Higher The Respect....Go figure
5. I'm sure the upper management will never talk to you unless we are talking about 100K and UP.....

[pixar]

And japeks that's exactly my point. They shouldn't run tables of any stakes if they can't employ people to supervise and enforce the most elementary and basic of poker rules.

I realize they couldn't care less, and that's fine. I'll just continue to tell people about my negative experience and draw away as many players as I can, all because they couldn't be bothered to spend 5 minutes looking at the footage.

[japeks_2]

welcome to the Philippines.

[Mark D.Hazzard]

I sympathize with you sir. Unfortunately, Metro being all that it is, unless you can get Bryan the resident Metro TD to correct that ruling and the erring floors, the incorrect rules stay on. With no one near enough in status to threaten Metro, there really isn't any compunction to improve on their part. Especially if most of us minnows at the 10/20's remain unheard/ignored.

A glimmer of hope is that I have encountered this problem several times before and there is at least one other floor person who knows the correct ruling aside from Bryan. Little consolation, yes, but at least not everyone in Metro is on the side of error.

Kind of surprised there are few comments in this thread. Are we all so jaded? Are we just sheep?

[Seattleallstar]

there has to be more to the story or you are leaving something out, I just cant believe they would do that, the Metro is the standard by which cardrooms in the Philippines should aspire to be.

[Seattleallstar]

It also doesnt matter if the game is 10/20 or 1 milllion/ 2 million. What is right is right especially in poker, there are rules and standards for every game regardless of stakes played. It doesnt matter if you are just a middle class getting by or the biggest shot/badass ever. But then again this is the Philippines we are talking about, so good luck

[Seattleallstar]

welcome to the Philippines.

Nuff said, unfortunately

[pixar]

@Seattleallstar

I'm in the exact same mindset as you. In a sheer state of disbelief. I wish I was wrong.

@Mark

I agree completely. The Metro is a monopoly without any competitive threat, and as such this will go on.

As much as I do enjoy playing at the Metro, I notice that in Manila they do not enforce any rules. For instance, forward motions in tournaments, string betting, collusion, multiple players to a hand, etc, are all standard practice each day.

When I played at the Metro Bacolod this wasn't the case, and Bacolod only has 1-2 tables max. Yet they were able to professionally enforce rules penalizing forward motion, string betting (or any type of action to procure a reaction from an opponent). So I do believe Metro is capable of doing this, they just unfortunately don't seem to care in Manila (too much money and no competitors).

I have lived in the Philippines 2 years and have come to accept things such as this, but have also seen businesses treat their customers exceptionally well, and so do believe that professionalism is possible here, there just needs to be a management that recognizes the many benefits that a positive company image can bring.

[panulay]

next time get the name of the dealer and the floor manager and report to BryanTD or post here at POKERMANILA.

im sure this problem will be addressed soon.

it's difficult when the ones implementing the rules doesnt read or understand the rules. LOL. -- by this i dont mean at the metro only. i mean all the cardrooms.

[welcoat]

I am not a TD but can understand the confusion, based on TDA rules below:
37:   Raises 
A raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting
round.  If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the
minimum raise, he must make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise
allowed (see exception for multiple same-denomination chips in Rule 39). In no-limit and pot
limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

40:   Number of Allowable Raises
There is no cap on the number of raises in no-limit and pot-limit play. In limit events there
will be a limit to raises even when heads-up until the tournament is down to 2 players; the
house limit applies.
http://www.pokertda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Poker_TDA_Rules_2011_Version_2.0_PDF_longform.pdf

This was the situation:
"I'm UTG. I call 20. MP raises to 80 (4x BB raise). MP+2 pushes all in for 140. Action folds to me. I bet 280.

I'm told by the dealer this is not allowed since MP+2 did not double MP's bet."

bet amount = 20 by utg
raise amount = 60 by mp
to call amount = 80
re raise amount = 60 by mp+2
to call amount =140
re re raise amount = 140 by utg
to call amount =280 SHOULD BE PERMITTED

clearly the all-in action of mp+2 was a minimum re-raise of mp's raise.  in fact if he has only 110 left, his re raise is 30 which is 50% of earlier raise so is normally considered a full raise.
"If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the
minimum raise, he must make a full raise."
The fact an all-in does not have enough to make it full raise does not make it not a full raise, as technically the 50% is already adjudged a raise.
in the above example notwithstanding whether it was all-in or not, the mp+2 made a 60 raise which was the full amount of minimum raise required, so there is no limit for utg to make further raise, and similarly for mp for further raise action provided their respective chips can support the minimum action.

The ruling of the card room is correct only if mp+2 had 109 or less left, so his re raise amount is only 29 which is less than 50% of raise of mp.
"an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted."

[japeks_2]

The problem is not the rules...we all agree that the metro was wrong int he ruling..

The rule is pretty spot-on---As long as you can double the bet, you can do it.....Thus the game NO-LIMIT......

The problem whose implementing the rules....

In the 10/20 tables of the metro, you really don't have a say if the house said otherwise....it's as if THE HOUSE owns your money....
it's the lowest stake in the country....
and you are EXPECTED to follow the GUIDELINES OF THE METRO......

really, it's far worst than RW poker..at least in RW you would know that the dealers have so many games to think about and probably..unlike in the metro were all they only have one game..or least one game most played.

[Seattleallstar]

those rules are for tournaments, this was a cash game. I know the rules are the same but I do know cash games are a bit more liberal with rules, unless the TDA rules applies the same to cash games. In most cardrooms here there are separate list of rules for Tournaments and in cash games. Most are the same but there are subtle differences.

[welcoat]

but maybe if we look hard enough the metro card club might have a in-house rule that says
"an all-in wager does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted."

[Seattleallstar]

but maybe if we look hard enough the metro card club might have a in-house rule that says
"an all-in wager does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted."

good point man, some places allow it and some places dont

[welcoat]

ANOTHER CONCURRING DOCUMENT

PAGCOR Poker Implementing Rules and Guidelines version 2. 11
http://www.scribd.com/doc/56129558/2/ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

ARTICLE SEVEN – BETTING STRUCTURES
7.01 NO-LIMIT POKER
No-Limit is considered by many to be the purest form of poker. Many major tournaments, including the World Series of Poker championship event, are played no-limit.
7.01.01 AMOUNT BET
A player may bet all money he has in play at any time, pursuant to the rules governing table stakes. Literally, there is no limit on the amount aplayer may bet, up to everything he has in front of him.
7.01.02 NO CAP
There is no limit on the number of raises on any betting round.
7.01.03 MINIMUM BET & RAISE
Except for a player going all-in, all bets must be for no less than the minimum bet designated for the structure. Further, all raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that round, except when making an all-in wager.
7.01.04 NO CHECKRAISING AN ALL-IN WAGER
An all-in bet for less than the minimum bring-in may not be raised by any player who has already checked. Further, a player who has already checked and called may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the amount of the last bet or raise. (i.e. If a player bets Php100 and is raised Php100 by a second player and a third player goes all-infor a raise of less than Php100 and the first player calls, the second player may not raise again because he was not raised by a ‘complete raise’. However, the first player is permitted to raise because his bet was raised a complete raise by the second player. If the first player does elect to raise, then the second player may re-raise because he has now been raised a complete raise.)

[pixar]

This has been my view from the beginning, that an all-in action has no bearing on my ability to re-raise the MP's raise.

If it were possible for an all-in to effectively kill all action for anyone that's acted, then imagine the following scenario:

Player A colludes with Player B. Player A buys in maximum amount (2000php). Player B buys in minimum amount (200php).

Player B is CO, player A is button. Let's say this is an action table. UTG gets dealt AA and therefore wants to slowplay it preflop, so does a standard call for 20. MP raises to 150. Several players yet to act all limp the 150. Now, player A is dealt 77 and wants to set-mine, and fears that UTG may re-raise the 150 bet instead of calling. In order to prevent this, player A signals to player B to push all-in. Player B pushes all-in, and player A calls.

According to what happened to me yesterday, UTG must now call and cannot re-raise. If this is true, and is a rule, then as you can see from my example this is severely exploitable. Effectively, anyone with a short stack  in late position or the blinds has the ability to destroy all betting if their remaining stack does not double any raise amount, or is less than 50% of any raise. This could actually be done on any street, not just preflop, and could destroy the game if exploited correctly (I can already imagine how I would do it if this ruling was really correct, not even by colluding).

A player pushing all-in should have no bearing whatsoever on the ability for a player to re-raise an original raiser.

I notice you mention that an all-in may not re-open action in certain circumstances. In my specific example I didn't want the all-in to re-open action, I simply didn't want the all-in to be able to close the already existing action. The action already existed since MP raised to 80. Even if there was no all-in, I'd still be able to re-raise. An all-in should not prevent my ability to make a re-raise by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't think the all-in bet should even be considered in any question as to whether or not I should be able to re-raise.

[panulay]

but maybe if we look hard enough the metro card club might have a in-house rule that says
"an all-in wager does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted."

good point man, some places allow it and some places dont

but all of them are required to post whatever house rules they have. arent they?

[tnx4DchipsLOL]

surely metro will act on in and give those erring dealer and floor a slap on their wrist.

i don't think metro can afford to go hard on its employees for several reasons.

[11Finger]

next time get the name of the dealer and the floor manager and report to BryanTD or post here at POKERMANILA.

im sure this problem will be addressed soon.

it's difficult when the ones implementing the rules doesnt read or understand the rules. LOL. -- by this i dont mean at the metro only. i mean all the cardrooms.

Agree note down the names of the floor and dealer, that way story can be verified and any (possible) errors explained/corrected. I've asked Nina and Brian to read your post...

[11Finger]

The problem is not the rules...we all agree that the metro was wrong int he ruling..

The rule is pretty spot-on---As long as you can double the bet, you can do it.....Thus the game NO-LIMIT......

The problem whose implementing the rules....

In the 10/20 tables of the metro, you really don't have a say if the house said otherwise....it's as if THE HOUSE owns your money....
it's the lowest stake in the country....
and you are EXPECTED to follow the GUIDELINES OF THE METRO......

actually in any room you ARE expected to follow their rules, house rules always trump global/official rules

really, it's far worst than RW poker..at least in RW you would know that the dealers have so many games to think about and probably..unlike in the metro were all they only have one game..or least one game most played.

Just because their dealing several games doesn't mean that they should be "forgiven" for their mistakes. They're professionals, they get bigger rake than the Metro why should they be held at a lower standard ?

[11Finger]

but maybe if we look hard enough the metro card club might have a in-house rule that says
"an all-in wager does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted."

good point man, some places allow it and some places dont

Nope I've played long enough at the Metro to know this is not true, if OP posted the details right then it is indeed a bad ruling.  I think the minimum he can reraise is 260, so his 280 bet should have been allowed...

[polnkel]

but maybe if we look hard enough the metro card club might have a in-house rule that says
"an all-in wager does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted."

good point man, some places allow it and some places dont

Nope I've played long enough at the Metro to know this is not true, if OP posted the details right then it is indeed a bad ruling.  I think the minimum he can reraise is 260, so his 280 bet should have been allowed...

-  i had that experience before....  cannot re-raise daw dahil yung all-in ng short stack didnt doble the previous raise....

mahina na mga metro floors lately....  bad service...

singit ko lang....

last month... i had a complaint about a dealer... ang ingay nya sa lamesa... ka chat nya yung HP na nasa seat #1...  binulong ko lang discreetly sa isang floor....  told her or him... im not sure kung ano sya... 
next thing i know... pag lipat ng table ng dealer... napadaan sa table ko.... ang sama ng tingin sa akin....  tinibre cguro ng floor na ako yung nag complain....

[pixar]

next time get the name of the dealer and the floor manager and report to BryanTD or post here at POKERMANILA.

im sure this problem will be addressed soon.

it's difficult when the ones implementing the rules doesnt read or understand the rules. LOL. -- by this i dont mean at the metro only. i mean all the cardrooms.

Agree note down the names of the floor and dealer, that way story can be verified and any (possible) errors explained/corrected. I've asked Nina and Brian to read your post...

I didn't note the dealer's name. It was Table 4 around 1:30am on 29th November.

I agree that it would be nice if Metro posted their house rules somewhere all players could see them (including both on their website and in the card room). I've attempted to find them on a few occasions to verify various floor rulings however have been unable to do so.

[penmanila]

yes, it would be good if the house rules were posted--and if all the dealers and floors had name tags, for easier accountability (and for making friends, ha ha).